How to Obtain a Second Passport or Residence Permit Abroad

Jenni: Well, welcome to the Modern Family Finance podcast where we talk about all things money, career, and life. I'm Jenny and a San Francisco Bay Area financial planner serving women and LGBTQ professionals. So having lived abroad myself in Europe and Asia I love the idea of going international to live your ideal life.

Jenni: So in addition to it just being a great adventure, it can also be a great way to get to financial independence faster. But, you know, and I talked to a lot of clients who asked the same question, but one of the big questions to solve is, how do you actually get residency or citizenship? So that is why I reached out to John Green.

Jenni: He is a director at Latitude Consultancy, which is a company that has helped over 6, 000 clients obtain a second passport or residence permit, and they operate in 20 countries worldwide. So thanks for being here, John.

Jon: Thanks for having me, Jenny. It's a pleasure.

Jenni: Cool. Do you want to tell me just a little about yourself and more about Latitude?

Jon: Excellent. So my name, again, John Green with Latitude Consultancy. I'm one of the co founders of the company. We started just about six and a half years ago, and we specialize in citizenship and residency by investment planning. So we're assisting clients with these type of programs from all over the world.

Jon: And we have a global presence. I myself am based in our Vancouver office and predominantly assist our North American clients with obtaining a second citizenship or a residency permit from around the world.

Jenni: Gotcha. I can hear the Canadian accent.

Jon: Yeah, I can't hide that. It comes out all the time. That's for sure.

Jenni: That's awesome. So, tell me some of the use cases. Like, what kind of folks are engaging with your services?

Jon: We get a wide range of clients. Everywhere from the ultra high net worth to the high net worth to the mass affluent clients from all over the world, predominantly American clients are seeking more options in life and not to be necessarily tied to one country. They want the option or the freedom to be able to reside in another country, or just have that option down the road should the need ever arise.

Jon: And so that's really where we come in. We're helping with that, that planning because there are a lot of misconceptions within this industry on on certain programs and what the qualifying factors are, the minimum investments, etcetera. And so we can come in and sit down with the client and review their options and help steer them in the right direction to the program that's going to best fit their needs.

Jenni: Okay, yeah, I mean, I, Tell me some of the more popular countries that Americans are trying to get to.

Jon: Certainly. Well, we have in Europe, I'd say the most popular program for our American clients right now is probably the Portugal Golden Visa. So it's a program that's been around for, since 2012 and the government of Portugal created this program back then as a way to help the country come out of the debt crisis from 2008, 2009.

Jon: And it's really had a positive effect on the country as billions of dollars have been poured in through foreign direct investment as foreigners from all over the world, not just Americans, of course, are looking at Portugal as a viable option for a residency permit. And what's made it so popular is that it's a flexible program.

Jon: So. Clients only need to spend seven days per year in the country to maintain the residency status, and that's even enough to qualify for citizenship after five years. So, for a lot of clients who maybe aren't quite ready to make the move to Europe, but they want to start the process and they're working, wanting to work towards citizenship, Portugal has been a very popular program because of that flexible nature, especially those with kids still in school.

Jon: They're not ready to make that move yet, but they're interested, you know, in the longterm ultimate goal of EU citizenship. So Portugal has been a very popular program with our clients.

Jenni: So I heard though that that program has ended. Is that the case? Or what is, how can people get to Portugal now?

Jon: It's not the case. So, Portugal, every couple of years, tweaks their program. And so, when it was first launched in 2012, the two main options were a bank deposit and a real estate investment. And throughout the years, they've tweaked it in terms of the minimum costs to help encourage investment in more rural areas of the country.

Jon: And they brought in new options, whether creating a business or investing in a venture capital fund. But in about October of last year they decided to remove real estate as a qualifying investment. And that's really because some of the concerns the local population had was real estate prices were becoming too high for the local population to afford.

Jon: Notwithstanding, the Golden Visa makes up something like 0. 01 percent of real estate sales throughout the country. Nonetheless, the government wanted to appease the, the voters, and so they removed real estate as a qualifying investment. However, they still have a number of options to qualify, and right now the most popular is the Venture Capital fund, which is an investment from 500, 000 Euros into a fund, which in turn is investing into Portugal.

Jon: And that will qualify you for the golden visa.

Jenni: Gotcha. Okay, great. That's actually a big misconception is that it's over. You can't get into this anymore. So you can still get into Portugal. It's just a different type of investment. Tell me though, like, sorry, go ahead.

Jon: I was going to say, so there's, there's a caveat to that in terms of the application delays, the processing delays. So right now we're estimating that applications, if we submitted one today for a client is going to take two to three years for the government to approve that application. So they have a, an enormous backlog of immigration applications across all sectors, not just the golden visa, which makes up a very small portion of that.

Jon: And so for clients, if they're, they're patient, then it's, it's, it's a good solution. But what's interesting is the government's past legislation where the five year citizenship clock is actually going to start on application submission rather than on application approval. So even though clients are perhaps waiting two to three years for their application to be approved, they're already working towards that citizenship, the five year path to citizenship.

Jon: So it's still a very popular program despite those delays, and for those clients who actually want to move to Portugal, they're interested in moving sooner than later, they can actually go to court. And sue the government, which sounds harsh, but it's not, it's a pretty simple procedure because by law, Portugal is supposed to review applications within a certain time frame.

Jon: And so if, if clients are actually wanting to move to Portugal to establish their life there, then you can force a court to make a decision on the application and ultimately get it approved. And so that's another way to get to Portugal quicker for those that are interested.

Jenni: Gotcha. Okay. Great to know. Outside of Portugal give me some other examples of popular programs that Americans are going after. If the desire, and I think what you laid out earlier, like why would Americans want to do this? I think what I'm hearing is a lot of folks do want that optionality. They're not ready to move and just go over there now, but they want the optionality if, you know, stuff hits the fan, they can go there.

Jenni: Or if, you know, they're thinking about retiring in the future, they can go there. What are some other programs that are popular? Yeah,

Jon: it is popular, but it's not as maybe attainable to as many people as the Malta Citizenship by Investment Program. So this is Europe's only Citizenship by Investment Program where clients contribute to the country and subject to strict due diligence checks are granted citizenship.

Jon: So this is a more costly program because the path to citizenship is about 18 months. Once they're a citizen of Malta, they have the right as an EU citizen to live and work anywhere in Europe. And the cost though, as I said, it's substantial. It starts at about 950, which is a non recoverable cost.

Jon: So it's a combination of a government contribution as well as due diligence and some processing fees, the leasing of a property, et cetera, takes you up to about 950, 000 and for each additional dependent, such as a spouse or a child, you can include them, but then the cost goes up slightly about 60 or 65, 000 euros per additional dependent.

Jon: So you can see it's an expensive program, so it's not for everybody but those who have the financial means and are comfortable making such a payment in return for citizenship, it really is the ultimate solution.

Jenni: gotcha. So for a million bucks, somewhere around there, you can get citizenship into the EU. Okay, well, it's an option,

Jon: Exactly.

Jenni: Speaking of the citizenship by investment programs, you know, I'm a financial planner, right? So my, my question is, what are the main risks, right? So let's just go back to the Portugal one as an example.

Jenni: I'm gonna put, what did you say, 500, 600, 000 euros into the VC fund. You know, is there, are these, Do I think about risk the same way that I might think about any typical VC fund which is reasonably high or like what is What what how do you think about that from? You know financial standpoint

Jon: Yeah, it's a great question. So I'd say Portugal was very popular back in the day because it was an investment in real estate. And we did have clients going through the Venture Capital Fund, even though real estate was available. Because the Venture Capital Fund used to be 350, 000 Euros, and so then, but when they increased it, the demand did go down.

Jon: However, now that real estate's been removed, we see the demand go back up with the Venture Capital Fund. Like any investment, There's risk that comes with it and there can't be any guarantees by the fund to, to, you know, return the money risk free. So, and there's a varying different funds to choose from, which come with varying risks.

Jon: Some are more indexed funds while others are, are investing in third tier, you know, investments. Europe football clubs with hoping to graduate them to higher tiers. That's obviously would be a higher risk fund. And there's a, there's, there is a combination there. So we always recommend, of course, our clients who are interested in these funds, we can help set up meetings with their financial advisor and the fund itself to learn more about their investment strategies, what the funds will be targeting and, and help to find the right match for a client from their appetite risk.

Jon: And there is again a wide variety there for these funds, and it is possible to divest in in terms of choose two or three funds, and so you don't have to put the whole 500, 000 euros into one fund. It can be spread across a number of funds for those that want to diversify.

Jenni: Got it. Okay, and if someone was interested in this who could help them do diligence, right? Like are there low are there objective third parties that can help with that because obviously Understanding the Portuguese VC market is probably pretty obscure to most folks

Jon: Yeah, we, we certainly do some initial due diligence on these funds. So we have vetted these funds and, you know, not every fund passes our vetting. And so we don't work with all of them. Of course, we're comfortable with a set of about 10 or 12 funds that we have vetted and are comfortable with. But like I said, what we always recommend our clients for the funds that are Interest to them.

Jon: We can help set up calls with the fund managers and the client's financial planner to set up these calls to ensure they are comfortable with the fund before investing in it

Jenni: Got it. Okay. Makes sense. We spoke about Europe. Are there anything else in Europe outside of these two? And what about other, other regions of the world?

Jon: Certainly. So before I get into the caribbean, maybe we'll touch on on the other european options that are popular greece is a another golden visa So what we call a residence by investment and it involves real estate It's currently minimum is 250, 000, but it will be increasing to 400, 000, essentially at the end of August.

Jon: But that's been a very popular program just for those who want to invest in real estate. And perhaps citizenship is not an end goal because it's very hard to graduate to citizenship. They require you to live in Greece for at least six months out of the year. For seven straight years and then have an intermediate knowledge of the Greek language, which may be harder for some than others.

Jon: And there's also a Greek knowledge, a citizenship knowledge test that they must pass at the end of seven years, which apparently is quite difficult. So for for those who are looking at these programs as a eventual You know, path to citizenship. Greece probably isn't the right fit unless they're comfortable with that, that type of journey.

Jon: The other program that's been quite popular is the Spain Golden Visa, and it involves the purchase of real estate from 500, 000 euros, although the government is Currently debating whether to keep real estate as a qualifying option, or they may follow Portugal steps and actually remove it again for those that are interested in citizenship.

Jon: It's a longer path. It's a 10 year journey with the first 5 years being flexible, but then from your 6 to 10, you have to spend a lot more time in in Spain, unless you're from a latam or former Spanish colony, then it shrinks from 10 years down to 2 years. That's a quite a big difference if you're lucky enough to hold a citizenship of a former Spanish colony, and that includes pretty much all of South America, as well as the Philippines.

Jon: So there's a shorter path for people there. And just like Greece, there is a language requirement for both Spain and Portugal which I'd be remiss not to mention, and it's an A2 level, which is considered basic. So it's not as quite as hard intermediate. The Greek program requires to graduate to citizenship, but you must have a basic understanding of either Portuguese or Spain in order to graduate to citizenship.

Jenni: Yeah. Okay. And I mean, you bring up a good point, kind of. There's these, most of these programs are residency by investment. Only the Malta one is by citizenship. But from from the context of the American who wants optionality, what is the main difference between residency versus citizenship? Yeah. And if I got residency in Portugal, can I decide to move to Spain?

Jenni: Because it's in the Europe.

Jon: That's a really, really good question. So yeah, there's two main types of programs that we offer. Citizenship by Investment and Residence by Investment. So a Citizenship by Investment, there's very few countries around the world that offer such a program. I mentioned Malta earlier, but there's about 10.

Jon: Turkey offers it, Vanuatu in the South Pacific, and then there's five Caribbean countries that offer Citizenship by Investment, where you are essentially, Either investing in real estate or you're contributing to the government, which is a payment, and subject to due diligence checks are granted citizenship.

Jon: Some of the programs have a slight residency requirements while others don't, but this is a much quicker path to citizenship for clients. So those that want kind of a quicker solution, a citizenship by investment program is very, is a very strong solution. In comparison, a residence by investment program, you're investing in the country, sometimes real estate, other times venture capital fund and return, you get that residence permit. So it gives you the right to live in that country. In the case of Portugal, you invest in the venture capital fund, you get the residence permit, the golden visa, To live and work in Portugal, that does not give you the right of establishment or the right to live full time in another EU country. So that right only becomes available once you're an actual citizen of, say, Portugal.

Jon: Then if you wanted to go live in Spain or the south of France, you would have that ability once you're a citizen. But just merely being a resident doesn't grant you any more rights. Around Europe. It does give you visa free travel within the Schengen zone, so you can easily travel but you just can't kind of go past a long term stay in another EU country until you're a citizen.

Jenni: Gotcha. Okay, that's really good to know. Okay, how about outside of Europe? What are the other things that are popular?

Jon: So, as I mentioned, the, the Caribbean programs which are offered by Antigua, Dominica, Grenada, St. Kitts and Nevis, and St. Lucia. So these five Caribbean countries all offer a citizenship program where you can either qualify via a contribution or an investment in real estate. And so these are much quicker paths again to citizenship.

Jon: Typically, there's six to 12 months depending on the program. So for clients who are maybe looking for a second passport right away, or fairly quickly, these are really good and strong solutions. They get that second passport within that short six to 12 months. And like all these programs, they're subject to due diligence checks.

Jon: So governments are, you know, doing their know your client or due diligence checks on the individual and all family members. And they actually you know, are paying a third party due diligence company to come up with a 40 or 50 page report on that individual applicant who's interested in the program.

Jon: So they do have some vetting procedures that go in place. Number one. Reason to be rejected would be a criminal record. So these programs do require all applicants to have a clean criminal record. And that's a big one. But the Caribbean has been very popular because the price point is a bit more, more attainable than the EU program.

Jon: So they generally now they've just gone through a price increase or harmonization in the Caribbean. So the programs will be starting from just over 200, 000 U. S. And they vary depending on the family size, the number of dependents, et cetera. But some of these programs, all of them, let you include children as well as adult children sometimes up to the age of 30, as long as they're still financially dependent on the, the parents.

Jon: And the main applicant can also include his parents if they're financially dependent. And in some cases like Antigua, you can even include unmarried siblings within your application. So each program, again, this is why we like to meet with clients to find out what their objectives are, because each program is a little bit different on who qualifies and what the costs are what the application process is, so we can really sit down with the client and go through them all to find the right program that's best suited for them.

Jon: But certainly I would say, you know, our American clients are increasingly looking at the Caribbean as a solution to get that second citizenship. And the reasons for it, there are a multitude of reasons, but I give a classic example is, is during COVID when many countries all of a sudden banned Americans from traveling to their shores, they just said, no, they're not welcome, unfortunately.

Jon: Because of the way that COVID was spreading, but those who had a second citizenship from, say, a small, peaceful Caribbean country could easily travel to anywhere in the world, frankly, because most of these passports in the Caribbean have visa free travel to over 150 countries, including Europe. So we had many clients who had no such restrictions at all during.

Jon: The height COVID, they could easily travel around. And then we have other clients who, you know, they're not always comfortable showing their American passport when they check into a hotel or go through customs and they show their Antigua and Barbuda passport or their Dominica passport. They're just more comfortable showing it.

Jon: When they travel kind of thing,

Jenni: Got it. Okay. Because yes, I was going to ask, why would someone want a second passport? And yes, the COVID situation is definitely one. Okay. We've mentioned Europe. We mentioned the Caribbean. What about other places? Any, any other major programs that you would want to mention?

Jon: certainly, I think what we're, you know, during the, you know, what we're getting feedback from our clients in the United States is certainly the political divide is causing uneasiness. There seems to be a lot of rhetoric on all sides and there's no middle ground anymore is what we're hearing from our clients.

Jon: And, and so people are becoming disillusioned with that and that's where they want options in life. And, and not again be tied to one country, but, but have that ability to live work somewhere else, even if it's not in the immediate future, but put down the road some of our clients are looking at, you know, the federal debt levels and how it's continuing to grow and how it's not sustainable.

Jon: So they're looking to diversify their, their investment portfolio. If you're going to invest outside the country, why not it come with a second citizenship or a residency permit and you're getting some of your money outside the United States, or maybe you feel it's a better investment. So you diversify your risk.

Jon: But then going back to your question about. Other programs where we do see demand, of course and it's kind of a, an ongoing joke whenever there's a run up to an election, know, the Canadian Immigration Department's website sees a spike of inquiries from the United States. And so Canada right now is seeing record levels of immigration, maybe not sustainable, but there are different options, but.

Jon: Unlike, say, the Golden Visas programs, which are very flexible, you don't actually have to live there full time if you don't want, right? There are minimum stay requirements Greece has zero days, Portugal seven days per year, etc. So they're quite flexible. Canada, on the other hand, actually wants you to move to the country and establish yourself.

Jon: So for those who maybe aren't qualified for what they call expressed entry, which is skilled worker. So that's kind of between the ages of maybe 24 and 35, highly educated with excellent language skills. Then you can qualify for expressed entry. But for a lot of our clients, they're outside that age bracket.

Jon: So what's a popular program right now is the Canada Startup Visa. So this is where you're investing into a Canadian startup, becoming a 10 percent owner of that startup and you can be granted permanent residency. And the success or failure of the business has no no outcome on your, your visa status.

Jon: And so to maintain your visa there in Canada, you would need to spend 40, 40 percent of your time over a five year period in Canada, and if citizenship is your goal, then 60 percent of your time needs to be spent in Canada over a five year period. So it's more of a commitment, you can see to come to Canada, at least to maintain it you know, two out of five years or citizenship, you need to live there for three out of five years.

Jon: So it's a bit different of a program and and most countries are like that around the world, right? In order to maintain it, they they're actually wanting you live there full time on their shores. Whereas the golden visas and even Malta to that to that extent doesn't require you to live there full time if you don't wish to.

Jenni: Yeah. Got it. And tell me more about the startup. So this is you starting up your own business, being at least a 10 percent owner. Are there requirements to how significant or how many employees a startup can have? Like, can you go there and start a food cart and say, this is my startup? Or does it have to be of a certain thing?

Jenni: Yeah.

Jon: there's the main person, the founder, and then we bring in three or four other founders to help who have an area of expertise that can lend a hand to the business. And so Generally speaking, the one person will have an idea, something that's innovative, that's going to be, you know, a Canadian success story.

Jon: So whether it's AI, you know, things that are disruptive in, in today's world, so it could be anything technology, healthcare, AI You know, things of that nature where they're wanting to produce a Canadian product and then export it to the world. And so generally the, you'll have the main founder who maintains 40 or 50 percent ownership, and then the other co founders come in as 10%, you know, three or four co-founders will come as 10%.

Jon: And then the business plan must be supported by an angel group or a venture capital fund to write a letter of support. And then typically those, you know, three to five individuals will all be granted residency in Canada, as I said, permanent residency, as opposed to temporary, it is permanent.

Jon: And then, you know, the, whether the business is the next Google or Amazon, or, you know, startups are inherently risky, whether the business fails in six months or three or four years, it doesn't affect their immigration status. So they're immune to that. And for many of our, our, our, our co-founders , it's more of a an advisory role that they're playing.

Jon: So we help match, make them the founder with some co founders and someone may come from an accounting or a business or a marketing and sales background. So they're coming in to advise the company. And, you know, but not it's not generally a full time role, and so they are free to to work or start their own business should they choose to in Canada.

Jon: They're not restricted.

Jenni: I see. So the founder may already be in Canada, and what you're doing is matching co founders who might be interested not only in investing in this company, but also in getting the residency in Canada, and that's how you're pairing it together. Is that, is that correct? Gotcha.

Jon: number of different businesses that are looking for co founders, and that's where we match. And the businesses, though, Generally aren't yet in Canada. We're at the kind of the preliminary stage where someone has an idea. They want to come to Canada, but they need help, right?

Jon: So they need the expertise to help bring that business in, and they need some capital as well to help fund it. And so that's where we come and matchmake and help make the process smooth, a smooth process

Jenni: Fascinating. Yeah. It's definitely a matchmaking process in many of these things, right? So okay. So I feel like we've gone through a lot of these kind of investment programs. What are there are also citizenship by descent programs of which we personally, my wife is trying to investigate whether her Italian grandmother can help her get citizenship in Italy.

Jenni: So tell me more about, about these, like you might be sitting in America and you know, maybe you're grandmother or great grandmother was in some EU country that you'd like to move to. What options might there be?

Jon: There are literally millions of Americans right now who have the ability to acquire EU citizenship through their lineage, so through their family, and whenever I talk to a client, I always recommend or I always ask, do you have any heritage in Europe? And Italy happens to be one of the most flexible programs.

Jon: There's Poland, there's Spain, there's Portugal. They all offer it, but Italy happens to be one of the most flexible. And I'll tell you a story. I had a client who was looking at the multi citizenship program. So they were prepared to spend just over a million euros. And I noticed their last name was Italian, Heritage.

Jon: So I asked them, do you, have you looked at citizenship by descent in Italy? And they said, yes, but we don't qualify. Okay. And so I said, well, let, let us look at it as well. We'll do a complimentary review of your situation. We sent them our intake form. They, they send it back and it turns out both the husband and the wife had the lineage to acquire citizenship by descent in Italy.

Jon: So we literally saved them a million euros. So it was a pretty cool story for them and they're excited. So they're in the process now. But Italy, as I mentioned, it's, it's one of the most flexible programs. And so if somebody feels they may have that lineage, we'll send them our intake form, they complete it to the best of their ability, and then my team, who are experts in it, have the ability to go and look at, you know, the manifests of when those relatives actually came to Ellis Island, for example.

Jon: The key for Italy is when that last Italian relative left Italy, did they ever become an American before their children were born? So generally, if they become an American, then they have their children, the chain is broken. But if they are not yet American, and they subsequently have children, and maybe, you know, ten years later they become American, that's fine.

Jon: Their children are technically Italian. So what we do is we're just getting the Italian government to recognize that they are in fact Italian citizens. So there is a process to go through you can go through the consulate, But right now, some of those consulates take four to five years, and it's very difficult to get a an appointment.

Jon: So we can also assist clients with going to court in Italy and having a judge recognize that in fact, they are Italian citizens. And so, Again, sometimes you can help large families of 40 or 50 people because they have aunts, they have aunts and uncles, you know, they all come from the same grandparent, and it's like four or five siblings who then have children as well and great grandkids, and you kind of go down the line and assist all of them with the master file of that last Italian relative who left.

Jenni: that's amazing. Well, like how many generations back can it be that that last relative doesn't have to be the grandparent, the great grandparent, the great great great grandparent?

Jon: There's really no there's really no restriction on how far it goes back. It's more about the time of when they, they left Italy. So, for example for Poland, essentially, you need to have your last relative must have left after 1920. Because Poland didn't become a country until 1918. For Italy, that ancestor must have been alive after March 17th, 1861. So again, it's quite generous there for for Italy. And so for a lot of clients, you know, their, their relatives came over in the early 1900s. And what's intriguing about Italy is they have a lot of loopholes as well. So even though someone may have been told they don't qualify. Again, we review it and find out that they do, in fact, through this certain loophole which is what my team does.

Jenni: Gotcha, that's amazing. How long does that process take? How much does it cost? What happens if you do all this work and it's not true? Is it, you know, I guess you probably are paying the cost anyways.

Jon: Well, yeah, we don't, for example, we won't take on a client unless we're 100 percent confident, yeah, that they qualify. So there's, you know, for Italy, it's really, it's based on when that relative, if ever, became an American. And so there are ways to find that out. Right? Sometimes they're self reporting.

Jon: They put on documents that they're they're an alien. They're not a U. S. Citizen. And you know, there's clear records of that. And most people wouldn't lie on those type of applications that we see from 80 100 years ago. And so we're confident that they, in fact, you know, will qualify for Italian citizenship.

Jon: The cost very much varies on how far it goes back how many applicants there are, because the more family members you include, the cost goes down per person kind of thing. And then there's again, for those who need to go to court or want to go to court to speed up the process, it can be about a two year process.

Jon: They're going the consular route. It can be four or five, sometimes longer. So many clients go the court route or some don't even have a choice because they have to recognize we have to go through one of the loopholes and and that requires a court to recognize it. So the cost varies quite, quite greatly, I'd say.

Jon: And a variety of factors will affect the price, but generally a good estimate starts at about 10, 000 U. S.

Jenni: Okay. Great. But when you think about needing to spend a million dollars to buy citizenship, right? This is an amazing route if it can work for you. We're very excited. We're exploring this with you guys to see if that's a possibility for Lisa.

Jon: That's great. And, you know, once she becomes Italian, then it's quite easy for her to live anywhere in Europe, right? And your children would be, could become Italian as well. And if you want to, if you want to join her, of course, then you would just apply for a spousal visa. Whether that's in Italy or Portugal or Spain, and so it's very easy for you to also reside with her in any EU country, and then you can eventually graduate to citizenship of that country that you're living in as well through naturalization.

Jon: So for any clients who are lucky enough to have that lineage, I always recommend it. My kids did Polish. My, my wife is from Poland, was born there and immigrated to Canada. So our kids became Polish. So they all now have that ability to, to live and work anywhere in Europe. So it's just a great option to have.

Jon: But not everybody's lucky enough to have that lineage or it just goes back too far. You know, they've been their family's been here for a couple 100 years and then it's too far back or the country that they're, you know, some each country is a little bit different. Canada only goes back one generation, Portugal and Spain are generally two generations again.

Jon: Italy. There's no restriction. It's just that that that date that they must have been Italian after that

Jenni: yeah. I mean, that's fantastic though, because yeah, like you said, if you can become a citizenship and it's a EU country, then you have flexibility, not just in that country, but you know, the EU as a whole, which is huge. Okay, so this is very exciting for us personally, because we are very much into enjoying life in many countries and having more flexibility and freedom to do so is great.

Jenni: But how have you seen for the general market, like how has this You know, how has the desire or market for second passports and residencies evolved and kind of what trends do you see in the future?

Jenni: For

Jon: It's a great question. It's, yeah, when I started in the industry 15 years ago, I'd do the, the conference circuit, and I'd, you know, have a booth, and, and we'd be advertising our services, citizenship by investment in the Caribbean, because back, back then, there was really only St. Kitts Dominica were the only real programs, and people would give us a blank stare.

Jon: Why would an American ever need a second citizenship? Is that even legal? And of course it is. Americans can hold multiple citizenships. There's no there's no maximum number. But really we've seen that settlement change over the last eight years, I'd say. You know, when President Trump got elected, we saw an uptick in demand.

Jon: And then we saw a further demand once COVID hit. When, when COVID first happened, you know, we were taking a measures. Cause we didn't know what was going to happen with our, our business, right. Would demand slow down and it did for maybe the first three or four weeks. And then all of a sudden we saw a huge uptick and demand exploded

Jenni: me the heck out of here. Yeah.

Jon: good enough, right? They couldn't travel anymore on that American passport. And so we, you know, China used to always be the number one source market for the Portugal program. But when COVID happened, America became the number one source market. And really we haven't seen that change. That demand is still there. It's still increasing, whether it was COVID or, you know, the Supreme Court ruling on abortion, or you, you know, President Biden getting elected, it doesn't matter who gets elected, what side, there's always going to be people unhappy and looking at more options in life, right?

Jon: And wanting, wanting that. So the demand. It is increased. We saw that happening in the U. S. So greatly that that's why we opened an office. We have an office down in Miami, and that's the service the demand because this is the U. S. Has become such an important market to the investment migration space, and we don't see that slowing down.

Jon: Programs do come and go. And, you know, so that's another trend we've seen UK had a tier one program. They called it Ireland had an immigrant investor program, and they both close their programs. But, you know, then you have other countries that are thinking of launching a program like Hungary is launching one soon.

Jon: You know, Portugal thought about closing it, but then just tweaked it instead. And so programs come and go throughout you know, all the time. We don't see demand slowing down whatsoever.

Jenni: Gotcha. Well, and I think there is a sentiment that, you know, with all the anti immigration feelings, especially in Europe, that these programs will go away. I know you guys don't have a crystal ball, but are you telling clients, if you're interested in one of these investment programs, you should do it now?

Jenni: Or do you feel like these will still exist in some form or fashion? Yeah.

Jon: because there's pressures on these, on these programs, cause not everybody likes them. =Right. And for example, the Malta citizenship program, the EU took Malta to court over it. And that court case will be decided probably in the fall is the EU is not happy that they have such a program.

Jon: Notwithstanding that, you know, a Malta application is literally this thick paperwork, more due diligence and vetting goes into a Malta citizenship applicant than any other form of immigration, whether that's skilled worker you know, family reunification corporate transfer, refugee, whatever it may be, nothing comes close to the application process that a Maltese client or applicant will go through.

Jon: Yet the EU doesn't like it. They feel I, I suppose that people are buying their way in which they are to a certain extent. But the, the program in Malta has had such a positive effect on the country. You know, during COVID, when things were shut down, Malta kept operating because they had such a strong surplus from their program.

Jon: So they were able to pay their government employees without any issues. And so these programs, again, I mentioned earlier in, in the call, the podcast that Portugal. And even Spain and Greece, they all launched their programs as a way to get out of the debt crisis of 2008 2009. And it's all had that positive effect.

Jon: I've been traveling to Portugal since the inception of the program, and you would see a whole block dilapidated and abandoned. And then a developer would come, come in and buy a third of the block. And rebuild it and put an apartment building in sell those and another developer would come in by the other two thirds and develop it before you know it, the whole block was was bustling with activity.

Jon: And so it had that real positive effect on the country. They'll always be opposition. I think to to these programs. So will the multi citizenship program last forever? Maybe not if if they lose the court case. You know, change again. A lot of people were thinking about Portugal, but they waited too long.

Jon: And now real estate's removed. They're a bit more nervous about moving forward, say with the venture capital fund because they were just comfortable with the real estate option. But. They delayed it too long. So it's certainly worth starting a program that you're interested in sooner than later to ensure that one, it still exists and two, you're, you're happy with the qualifying investment that's available now because it might not, not, might not always be there.

Jenni: Got it. Okay. Well, this is great. Thank you so much for these great insights. And I mean, I think there's a lot of options out there, right? Whether it's investment or possibly exploring your own lineage as a, as a free way to get into it. There's a lot of options to explore. We, I'm, I'm curious for myself, like, is anybody interested in going to other parts of the world, like Asia, South America, wherever else, or are most of these things, most of the interest that you guys receive focused around Europe and the Caribbean?

Jenni: And

Jon: Most of it is around. Yeah, most of it's around Europe and the Caribbean in Canada. I suppose there are other options. Australia, New Zealand. Those are quite remote and far, far away. And they do require you. They want you to live there full time. So that's for a lot of our clients. They're not ready to make such a move.

Jon: So they like the flexibility that the Caribbean or Europe. Offers or the proximity that Canada is right. They can easily come back and visit extended family or friends if they live when they're going through the Canadian program. So we do see the most demand for those European and Caribbean you know, in Asia.

Jon: There's a few programs again, Malaysia. Thailand has a kind of a visa program, but they're all temporary solutions. They're not long term or, or necessarily lead to citizenship. And most of our clients just aren't quite ready to make maybe that, that move from, from the U S right now,

Jenni: Got it. Okay. This is great. So if people are interested, how can they find you?

Jon: certainly they can find us at latitude world. com. And that's our website with all the information on the programs that we offer. We have both Citizenship by Descent up there, the Citizenship by Investment, and the Residence by Investment programs. So our information, how to contact us either by email, phone call, or simply register on our website, it's quite easy to do.

Jon: And so they're more than welcome to visit and do so, and we'll get in touch with them right away.

Jenni: Great.

Jon: offer our services. And as I was saying earlier, we're happy to sit with clients over a Zoom call in person and just go through their options and almost provide an educational session. You know, these are your options.

Jon: These are your minimum costs. These are the requirements, what you're going to have to do to obtain it in the end. Some countries require you to open a bank account. You know, obtain a tax ID, et cetera. And so the requirements vary program to program. So we're happy to sit with, clients and go through that with them.

Jenni: awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, John. This is great.

Jon: Thank you, Jenny. A really pleasure to be here. I appreciate it.