How to Win at Salary and Benefit Negotiation for Women and LGBT Professionals

Jenni: Okay. Hi everyone. So as a financial planner, I help people figure out how to get the most out of their money through lowering taxes, investing smartly, and maximizing your equity comp and having a plan. But nothing fuels your financial independence like negotiating for higher compensation in the first place.

And sometimes a 30 minute conversation can change the course of your financial life. And it is not just your salary that is up for negotiation. Equity comp, how many days you're in the office, going on an extended career break. All of these things are up for negotiation too. And just as a personal story I was a couple of years into my career at one of the big tech companies in Silicon Valley.

And I wanted to take a year off to travel around the world with my now wife and work on a passion project. And I assumed that I would have to quit if I wanted to travel around the world for a year. But a colleague actually convinced me that I might as well try to negotiate which I was scared to do, but I prepared and I had the conversation.

I was successful. So that was just a really huge lesson for me. But I know that as a woman, a person of color, as an LGBTQ individual, I get how negotiation can be in an uncomfortable conversation when you're used to having a fight just to get a seat at the table. So that is why today I invited Kimberly Aguilera, founder of Zocalo, which is a recruiting firm guiding careers and helping clients build their businesses.

And her focus is helping folks in marketing, communications, and product, and helping clients with candidates who are values aligned. So thank you, Kimberly, so much. Kimberly, well, just a little more intro for her. Kimberly is a recognized leader in the executive search space. She is a dedicated advocate for advancing communities of color and workforce equity.

She is a hands on matchmaker who understands the needs of both companies and candidates. And I love this fact. 85 percent of her placements to date have been filled by people of color, LGBTQ plus individuals and members of other underrepresented groups. Which is awesome. So thanks, Kimberly, for joining us.

Kimberly: Thank you for having me

Jenni: Cool. Well, my first question I have is just like, why is it important for women, LGBTQ plus individuals and people of color to negotiate?

Kimberly: is important because I think a lot of us grow up with a certain way of, of taking like what we are offered. Like we're lucky to have what we have. It's, we're all very much like a lot of us are first generation and very much are just like in the thankful, you know, like We, we earned it, but that's good.

Don't push. Don't like, you know, don't disrupt things. But when I got into executive recruiting, I was astonished by how much people asked for it and how far they pushed it. And I just didn't know that this is actually the norm. And I have, I have this like joke that none of, I mean, it's like I tell people, I'm like, pretend like you're a white male, like they asked for.

Everything. And they get it. And that's, that's why people move up. So, you know, I think like I always like wish for the stars in your soul. You'll get something like, you know, in between. But if we don't ask, we'll never know. And then, you know, everybody else is doing it.

Jenni: I tell myself, I tell myself that sometimes too.

Kimberly: I have to as well. I'm like, no, no, no. Stand in your power. You deserve this.

Jenni: it's awesome. Okay. So imagine you are talking to a candidate who has gone through the interview rounds and is awaiting an offer. Or maybe they've already gotten an offer. What would you tell them?

Kimberly: Well, first of all, congratulations. I think so many people rush through these processes or just are so stressed through the process of, of interviewing and getting to an offer. And I think we forget to like just celebrate our wins. Like getting an offer is tough, especially in this market. There's not a lot of big roles open and there's a lot of competition for them.

So just, you know, celebrate a little bit, be happy for yourself, like live in that for a moment. But also think about. Why you started your search in the first place, or maybe if you weren't searching why you accepted the conversation Just lean back on like what's important for you in the role Make sure it's the right role like the title the leveling all of that and then in the offer Just remember where you are like remember So, when you set like this is my salary, you know, want, where is it? How does it feel now? Because it always, you can always say it, but like you don't ever actually know until like the offers in your hands, you're reading through it and you're like, how does it actually feel like if you started day one and you took this offer, would you feel like, damn, I should have asked for something for more, or like, how am I ever going to grow from this level?

So you really want to feel comfortable and set up. You know, like celebrated in that offer. So think about all the things that are important, the base your vacation days, like everything doesn't feel good and you can just, you can actually push on all of it. So like, just think about like where, how it feels, what would feel a little better and what, what wouldn't feel right.

Because if the offer doesn't feel right, it's okay. You can say no. And you know, sometimes like I say, like in interviewing, it can also just. Validate where you are and that you want to stay. And that's not a bad thing. People do it. It happens, you know? Yes. A lot of time, energy goes into the search and it's unfortunate, but don't, it's your life.

It's not anybody else's life. It is, you have to live with this day today. So if you say no, if you took the job and you would've regretted leaving that last place, because sometimes you have to think about where the company is. Is it about to IPO, and you're really gonna leave and leave. the things on the table or, you know, so you just have to take, think about it in a big, a big decision.

You know, there, these are big, big decisions like changing your job, buying a home, you know, moving, you know, choosing a partner. Those are like, these are all your biggest decisions in life. So be really thoughtful with it and take your time. Like, don't feel pressured. You usually have about a week.

Jenni: Okay. Got it. That's helpful. Okay. So let's say. I am this candidate. I've gotten an offer and I'm like, I don't know. It sounds okay. But I'm like, okay, I've just listened to Kimberly. She says I should just try to ask, okay, how would I, how would I know what to even ask for? Like, how would I know what the upper limit of what an offer should be to know what I should be trying to ask for, what I'm worth.

Kimberly: So, I know that you have a global audience, but me, I'm a bit localized in San Francisco, New York, and L. A., and both in California and New York, we now have, and just figure out your local laws, but we have to post the salary band on the job description now. And I believe it's like, yeah, so like where the tech, where the company is based of wherever they post it, they have to like put that salary band.

So if it's the California company, they have to post it for global roles as well. But so you can see on the job description now , it has to be on there. Typically, if it says there's about. 10 percent above what's posted for like to have some like wiggle room or negotiation room for big tech companies and maybe even more sometimes with tech companies just so much money in there. But it depends. So I would typically there's a little bit more. But I would really use your network to, to, to dig around like anybody, you know, there and just, you have to understand their leveling. So you have to know like, what level is it? Sometimes it's like the director, their number levels or whatever.

Every, every company is different and just try to get in there and get some, some info. You can use the internet to try to find, it's not always reliable. And but like, that's why you should have a really good recruiter because. Even if they didn't get you the job, a good recruiter will still say, Yeah, of course, I'm going to help. You know, we are gatekeepers. We have a lot of information, so we really want to help people advance. So, we'll try to find the info for you. Like, for instance, I have a lot of recruiters inside tech companies, and I ask them, I'm like, Hey, can you help me help this candidate? People want people to advance, so I would just do due diligence using your network and trusted, , confidants in the industries, shared industries.

Jenni: ,

so how has the environment of compensation changed?

You know, we're in the last, I mean, especially now, right? We're, we're talking about this at the end of 2023 going into 2024. And maybe you can talk about this from the standpoint of these mega tech companies, as well as maybe some of the smaller private, you know, companies.

Kimberly: Yeah, so overall I would say that the funny money is gone but I should preface that I have moved away from like the huge tech companies, like working with like Apple and Meta to you know, more private or, or VCs that are nonprofit, but I talk to people all the time, but I have a, you know, this is what I do all day long.

There's just, there was just really crazy money going around, but so it's changed. There's just less roles open. We've all seen the layoffs. I think the band stayed truer to where they are. I don't, it hasn't, they haven't lowered, but they haven't raised in the past three years, I don't believe for the senior roles. And negotiating, you can still negotiate because I don't, it hasn't really changed the negotiation tools because actually it's hard, it's talent people, internal talent people are. inundated with resumes now. So like once they, when getting through like hundreds and hundreds of resumes, it's, it is a horrible job. It is so, to go through them and like, you know, there's just the wrong people are applying. It's really takes a lot of time. So like, once you even get to the offer, it is a big thing. So they don't want to lose you. So, but I wouldn't use it. And, you know in a untrustful way, but I would just, you still have negotiating power at, at the offer stage, but yeah, there's just like not the, no, they're not throwing money around.

So there's less wiggle room on the money and more like you'd have to go for like vacation days or, or, you know, other things that are important to you, flexibility in the workplace. But even I see those, I do see Most companies increasing days in office if they already have a hybrid working schedule.

Jenni: Okay. That's helpful to know. I don't know if you have any idea, like, what is a standard, do you think, in terms of the number of days of office, if it's, if it's a hybrid?

Kimberly: Two to three yeah. And then I'm hearing three to four.

Jenni: Doesn't sound very hybrid y anymore. Yeah,

Kimberly: one big VC that they were very much completely remote, but now they're hiring around their HQs and really want people in office. So I mean, you know, there are the, the tech companies that are completely remote that I, that I haven't heard that changing, but yeah, I've even like, you know, Meta over here in New York is asking people to get in a bit more often.

Jenni: I'm sure. When you're negotiating how should you think, think about cash versus equity?

Kimberly: So, this is It's very individualized you know, I think at a certain point in my life, I could have been like all equity, you know, and taken a very, very low base and just been like, Oh, this is it. Like, I really believe that the equity is going to pay off here. And now I have two kids. I would never take the equity.

I need the, you know, I need the, the base. So you just have to make sure that it's, it, I would talk to your financial advisor, your accountant, your financial advisor and get some you know, that's why Jenny's here. And really figure out like what, where is your, no one seriously, but like. Where, where can you flex and where can't you and what does this look like in a long term?

And like, what is really understanding what the upside is? I think a lot of people have this idea that, Oh, equity, equity, equity, but you know what? Billion times zero is zero. So like we all have learned that and the equity piece has really hurt a lot of people in the past. years. So I just understand like the benefits and, and the risks and make a decision that's right for you, but get advice.

And I think if people can see like this whole thing is like, get advice, like, you know, like athletes have like trainers for like five days a week. Like we all are professionals and need a lot of, of resource and support. So that's why we, there, there are a lot of professionals out there that can help us.

Jenni: Yeah. Great. Yeah. I agree. Especially on this one. This is so important. Like trying to figure out how, how to get, how much to get paid. When it comes to equity and cash, would it be true to say that there's usually more flexibility to negotiate on the equity side or is that not true?

Kimberly: I think there is, especially for senior roles, yeah, I think there is, it seems like that's the trend especially when, with cash being a little bit tighter.

Jenni: Makes sense. About negotiating. So if you were actually going to, well, I'm sure you have coached people. What do you actually say? Like, how do you even enter this conversation? You know, in a way that like, obviously it's a sensitive balance, whether you're trying to negotiate a new job or you're trying to negotiate a raise in a current job.

You also don't want to piss off the people that you're talking to. Right. And you want to be respectful. What is, how would you advise to even approach this conversation? Like what would be the script, I

Kimberly: Yeah. Well, so always be very thankful of like the offer and say that, you know, when you get the offer, be very thankful and just say like, Hey, this is a, you know, a big decision for me. Please gimme, you know, some time I'll come back to you with my thoughts. And set it up that way so you by yourself some time. And then like say for example. You have an offer, I'll just make it sort of in the middle, like 200k and it comes in at 200 and you really want a 225. That you can ask, I've seen people ask for like 275 from 200 and get 250 and like that blew my mind. I'm like 275 from 200, that's so far away, you know, and, and it was clear, like everything was like clear up front, but I'm telling you people ask for a lot.

So, you know, you can. That's why I say like sort of shoot for the stars without turning them off. It's nice to have recruiters do it because we can like be like, Hey, you know, we know how to like have these like middle people conversations. But if you're doing on your own, I would just say like, Hey, I would absolutely take this at two seven five. Is there, you know, how does that feel for you? I don't want to make this feel unfair or I'm ungrateful, but now I'm really having the offer to be able to run all the numbers. You can make a nice, you know, play for it and then see where they come. And then also vacation, I think like four weeks is for executives is minimum now. And then most companies also have like, you know, Christmas to new year's offer some other, you know, like summer, summer Fridays still happens on a lot of organizations. The equity piece and like the vesting piece I've seen be, you know, like zero, like one week, you know especially for on the tech side like engineers that, cause they just like, the money got really, really funny for them. They would just make it, like those offers were huge and there was just nowhere to go with them except be like, okay, well you're like vesting, you know, you know, your vesting schedule is right down. What else? Yeah, I would just make it, just put it all together and just make a good nice note, you know, just like without, you know, making it feel like you're being really greedy and just say like, Hey, is, how does this feel to you? Let me know. We can talk live or something like that to really like take it on down. And then there's usually some, there's usually negotiation. They're going to meet you somewhere. Or

if they're not going to move anything, say, can I can we write in a three month review tied to salary?

Jenni: hmm. Okay.

Kimberly: if you're, if you're crushing it in three months and you put some, some measurable pieces in there, then say like I, I want to like percentage 10, 20 percent increase in that three months if it's really something and see how they go there.

It usually, usually you have to write it, you know, they'll, they'll write it in, but you have to like usually chase in three months and be like, Hey, can I get this review? You know, if it's not something they're set up for,

Jenni: Yeah, that's a that's a good idea though. It's kind of out of the box idea to try to

Kimberly: yeah.

Jenni: something to happen.

Kimberly: If you really want it. It's also like, you know, every situation is so different. So yes, there is a script, but like each one is just so, so different, you know especially for executive roles.

Jenni: and when you say like, so if we talk about, I don't know if negotiation, how it differs if we're talking about say a somebody who's five years out in their career versus somebody who's fifth, you know, 15 years of experience versus somebody who's like at kind of the most senior levels of VP and above, like how does the negotiation differ for these three, for these, let's just bucket them into three parts of your career.

Kimberly: I think there's less negotiation when you get to the, when you're very, very senior because those packages are just huge. And I think like there's more of like, there's more back and forth, you know, in the first two. Because once you're like, once you're very senior, you just like ask for it or they give you like a big package.

I once placed a CMO at Gap and I was like, oh, well, this package seems like very nice, you

know. And there was, yeah, there was no negotiation. I think maybe there was more for the relocation that they asked for and that was like fine. Which was like another 10k, which is, you know, there's just like a lot of money.

Jenni: heh.

Kimberly: But at your first, when you're first negotiating, when you first start to be like director level and above, yeah, there is, there is a lot of back and forth, but I think that's just part of it. You learn like, you know, how to communicate, how to manage up, like, you know, how to ask for what you want and, and, and figure out a way to, to get it and like really use your network.

Jenni: I love that. What about negotiating in a current job? So let's say you are working and you're, you know, you're, you're okay with your job and you find out through back channels that your colleague over there is getting paid 20%, you know, 50, like significantly more, I don't know, whatever, 10 percent more, whatever it is.

Somehow you figure this out. Right. And now you're like, wait a minute, I could be worth more. How would you approach approach like an internal negotiation?

Kimberly: Well, you have to do it in, you have to figure out what your, your schedule is inside. So you know, figure that out and make sure you're asking at the right time without like coming about it, like out of left field and be like, Hey, I heard that, you know, Jenny's making eggs, but like figure out when there's usually like two times a year in a company that, that we review salaries. And really make your case and really start to work towards like having case, like case studies or examples or, you know, like examples of your work and check in with like your manager or whoever is like, you know, tracking your work to make sure that you can like point to all these things. Cause you don't want them to take. You don't want to like come after something if you're not in good standing because they're gonna be like they're really gonna put the spotlight on you and be like, well, looks like you haven't performed on this and this and this, you know, it really puts a spotlight on you. So make sure that you're ready to And yes, you're asking for money, but they're going to go straight to your work and that's that's where that leads to. But I, I think you should just say like, hey, I, I believe that we are equitable workplace and this is where I want to be and, and know that others are at this level. And how can we get there and when can we get there?

And it's just as easy as that. It's just not, you know, and then like you, yes, put them and be like, are you, oh, so you're saying we're not equitable, you know, so like, you really have to like use this court, use their corporate jargon on them, you know and, and, and hopefully it would, it would be, you know, fair, but if it's not, then you would have to talk to HR and move it from there and make a case for yourself.

Jenni: Yeah, well, I love that too. I think the way you said it feels fair and reasonable because you're asking them, what do I, you know, if it like, I feel like it's equitable, what do I have to do to get there? And it kind of puts the onus to have this conversation. And then if you deliver, they also need to deliver.

If I was a manager and someone said this to me, I'd be like, okay, like this is actually a pro both ways, right? They get more out of you and you get more out of them.

Kimberly: Right.

Jenni: How is negotiation different, if at all in public versus private companies?

Kimberly: So, in public companies, there, just go back to that, there can be a lot of resource, there can be a lot of, of cash. In private, it, you're, you're mostly, remember I was like, okay, there's usually, you know, some wiggle room on the salary ranges in private and non profit. There's no wiggle room. And they're so honest.

So I told my like non profits I'm like, actually don't put the real range. You got to leave some room. I mean, cause you know, like, you don't want the people to know the exact actual range, but they're just. But yeah, so there's, you know, there's not going to be any movement on the top salary range in a private company, most likely that they post. And also they usually, if they're a private, very equitable company, they're never going to offer you the top of the range because they. They're like this is the range for this role and like they you'll probably be in this role a year or two So they want you to have room to grow So just net they want you to make up some of that money in that range So it's also a bit shocking for candidates because they're used to like just having a lot of room on the money on the salary range In public companies, like, I don't know, those ranges are just probably all over the place and they just don't want to lose people and they throw money at people to keep them.

So the range, like, gets completely skewed. In private, they really stick to them. And then in, in, in public, you know, you have the, the equity piece and you're not going to have that in private or, you know, maybe there's something else like a bonus pool. And then. You know bonuses or something that can exist in both along at what plus equity plus, you know base So there's like a lot of levers

Jenni: Mm hmm.

Kimberly: in in

public

Jenni: Got it. Cool.

Kimberly: And they'll have big benefit packages, you know, so like they can cover all your transportation, they can cover some food, they can cover home office, and in private you're not going to get that, you know, or like continuing education, all those sort of

things, or, or they may and you can just like ask for it,

you know, just, you know, it's always, you never know until you ask type of thing.

Jenni: Right. Yeah. That's helpful. what do you do if you are in a fortune position, you're hot stuff, and now you've received multiple offers? Should you tell people this, you know, how, how do you, how can you use that for your advantage?

Kimberly: Absolutely always tell actually from the start of your interviewing process at each company, you should say I'm actively interviewing. So this tracks to them that. They may have to pivot or react if, if things like heat up on, on your other roles and this should definitely be communicated. It actually is it looks bad and is taken, you know, a bit offensive.

They're like, oh, I already have another offer and you're like, what? I didn't know. I could have like, Staggered all this and set this up better for you. So the more, more open that you can be with communication about where you are with interviewing upfront is very helpful. And if you end up getting multiple offers all at one time, congratulations, you're a rock star. And I would go, same thing, tell everybody, tell everybody you have, you know, you have the offers. And usually sometimes. It just depends you can get one offer tell people you have offers and then like people, you know, you know all the author authorizations they have to go through. Sometimes they'll take a week to get your offer and you don't have enough time to like really put them all side by side.

So really start thinking through the offers as you get them, communicate to other places that you have the offers, but sometimes you only have like one day to think through all three or, or however many one you get at a time. But go back to like, like I said. What's important for you? Look at the offers.

If it's like 200, 205, you know, 225, but is that 25 grand? But you know, you're kind of, you know, your quality of life is going to be down your, you know, like it's just what is important for you. We can have a little bit more flexibility. Are you going to be managing people? You're not going to, you just have to like take all the pieces and go back to what was important to you at the start of your search and see where they all fill. And sometimes it can just be so easy as like, I want to take the highest offer. Or maybe like this one, I don't have to go to the office and that's more valuable to me. But and maybe negotiate all of them,

you should, you know, you should, and don't feel bad about it. And yeah, just lean into it because if three companies, more than one company wants you, you obviously have a lot of negotiation power, but just don't do it with humility, you know, and with grace and that just goes the longest way, you know?

Jenni: Yeah.

Kimberly: I think humble empowerment, you know.

.

Jenni: Well, I have a question actually for I often will work with folks who have kind of maybe non conventional career paths. Maybe they have taken extended career breaks. Maybe they've taken time off to care for family. So let's say you're talking to somebody who worked for 15 years and then took five years off.

And now they're like, my kids are grown and now can, you know, make it to school by themselves, and I want to go back to work, but they've been out for five years. How would you, what would you suggest? They do even begin,

Kimberly: Well, I'm glad that they're back and I don't think that they should feel bad about being away or, or feel like on the back foot because it happens a lot of things happen in life. And I think that whoever is going to hire you should, should understand this. And if someone is, if you feel on the back foot and judge for it, not the, not the environment for you, first of all.

So You don't want to be in a place like that that is not going to accept that but I would try to get back in It mentally you don't want to go back into it and be like, oh my family my kids And you know like you have to get back into that work mode And yes, you should be able to talk about your family and your kids But probably not in like the first interview and like your first in your first ten questions You shouldn't say like I need to do pick up at 2 30, you know Like let's get to the offer and then like, you know put that in but make sure you're prepared mentally to be there.

Like, do you remember how it is going back into a full time job? Is that really what you want? And if it is, then get back into that frame of mind, especially when you're searching and really thinking about like, what am I good at? Where do I want to do this? What can I commit to and how, how can we, you know, like what feels right and maybe even do like a little bit of coaching, you know, professional coaching you know?

Get your hype people in your life and make sure that like, they're helping you, you know, you feel ready for it and pumped to be there. And then. You, the way that you, you do not have to go too much into like why you took your time off. And I don't, and if someone's going to ask you too much about it, like, you know, you don't, you don't have to explain it.

That's like your info. It doesn't take away the 15 years of experience that you've had, but I would just like get back into the industry, whatever, like reading trades. Podcasts, there's just like talking to people, but you know, it all hasn't turned up so, AI isn't doing everything for us yet.

Jenni: Yeah, I mean, I'm just curious too, like just on this note, cause I have a friend who's kind of going through this, but like you kind of maybe left a field that you're like, ah, it was okay, but I don't even know if I want to go back. Like, I feel like a lot of the struggle of folks who have left for a while is they're not even sure what they want to do.

Yeah, exactly. Right.

Kimberly: Well, then I think so then it's like really then you should do some professional coaching because that's where These people are really trained to figure out like what's important I do a little bit in in recruiting, but mostly people are on a path, but I have worked with people that are getting back into the workforce as well, but it's really thinking about like Hey, if you're a mom, you're a project manager, you're a logistical expert, you're a traffic, you know, you get, you, you can do all of these things, but like, do you want to do that?

Like not outside of your family? You know, it doesn't mean it's just, I think it would really think about like, what are you passionate about? What are you good at? Where do you think you can add value? Because you really want to be adding value wherever you go. I think the more senior that we get, we want to make sure that we're making an impact, that our work means something, that, you know we're leaving some sort of legacy behind in our professional lives.

So really thinking about where, where that might work, like, you know, if you're a mom coming back to work and you are coming out of this expertise of being a young parent mom, like, or parent, you can go into like honest, you know, like these, these comp, there's so many companies that hire you know, experts in the, in, in the childcare industry or so, you know, there's lots of jobs.

So, I have lots of moms that'll be like, Hey, do you work with this company? It's like a child, you know, like Melissa and Doug. And I'm like, Oh, I do know someone there, you know, I can help you with that. But yeah, there's, there's you know, lots of ways to discover, you know, companies or opportunities that might exist that you didn't know about.

Jenni: Yes. Can you talk a little about like what you do, how, how you help people and just like even the different kinds of, like you mentioned, career coaches. Like if I, if somebody doesn't even know what resource, like what kind of resources are out there to help folks in this negotiation job finding process?

Kimberly: Yeah, sure. So I, I'm an executive recruiter at the core. So I work with companies, I get paid by companies to be a external recruiter expert that comes in and helps them on senior roles where like they're. current recruitment recruiters don't have the expertise in marketing and communications or product or they have some expertise, but they just are overworked and they just have too much on so I come in and help. So I carried a network constantly of in those three areas and a little bit beyond. And also like just through working with talent, like you end up being like a coach or a confidant. So I will always make sure when I talk to people, I always get to know them at the core of who they are, because it's sometimes it's the little things that people mention and that it just like really impacts like. Oh, actually, there was someone that loved urban farming and then there's like actually a marketing role at an urban farm, you know, or something like wild stuff happens, but I just want to know all those things, you

know, cause like really mixing passions with your professional experiences. That's like real magic.

But now there's a whole agricultural tech world that is out there. That's beautiful. But also I get to know people so well that they often call me like, Hey, Kimberly, I have this job offer. I know it's not through you, but can you coach me through it? And I will do that. So I have a flat fee where I'll charge to go through the offer stage with someone.

And usually it entails. There's three calls. So like I get called when the offer is received or close to being received. And I do that like exercise of like, okay, where are we at financially? What's important to you? We do that whole like very detailed exercise. Then You know, I will help them, like, get to a point of, like, go back and ask for this.

This is how you can ask for it. Sometimes I'll even write it and they can edit and then they'll come back to me if it didn't, you know, like, where we are and there's up to three calls and, you know. Hey, it's a very nominal fee of 250 and you know, you can make tens of tens of thousands more. So it's just one of those things that you just need an expert to weigh in and I'll, I'll lean on my network of other recruiters and executives that have Intel that we can use to get that offer up.

Jenni: That's great. That's a great resource. It's like hugely valuable. So

Kimberly: it is. It is. I wish I had it.

Jenni: I know I was like, why, why didn't I have this when I was trying

thank you, Kimberly, so much, because when I found out, first of all, I didn't know there were people like you who could help in negotiations. So I've been referring you to clients and I'm like, wait a minute, this is great. Like this is, this is, it is so important. And I think just having an objective person who knows, you know, like you said, Marketing product communications.

That's like a, you know, like covers a lot, like to, to know that you would know kind of what is out there is, is hugely valuable. And I think would give

somebody the confidence that like, Oh, I can ask for this whatever it is.

Kimberly: Yeah, that's right. And then, like I said, like, when, when you realize the power you have at your fingertips, like recruiters have a lot of info,

you know, and we work on, especially exec recruiters, we're working on one to five roles at a time. So it's very, very concentrated and focused. So like, I have a lot of info that I'm not using all the time.

So I'm very happy to help with negotiations and, and, and, you know, just answer questions and you know. Give out this info and spread it around because I did like throughout my career. I've gotten so many times especially from you know underrepresented Candidates like no one ever told me this before.

Oh my god, you doubled my salary. I'm like what? Yeah, this is not even Are you freaking you know, and it just hit me that I was like, why aren't other recruiters doing this?

But you need representation at the top and that's what I'm here to you know, make impact as much as I can

Jenni: that is awesome.

Have a good

Kimberly: Have a nice evening.

Jenni: for doing this. Ciao. Bye.